[IPAC-List] Call for new models for fire promotional exams

[Richard Arwood]

Joel:  YES!  It is certainly a "pay me now, or pay me later" proposition.
But again, in my experience, unless the employer has suffered, almost
directly, the consequences of poor planning and poor execution, then they
tend to be "blind" to the future costs and penalties of their approaches.  I
would guess that New Haven will certainly be sensitive to such things, but
many of our "other" cities may be too far removed from the last "spanking"
or any spanking to value the need for proper approaches.

I am fully within the boat with you Joel.

.................RBA

=======================================
Richard Arwood, Fire Chief (retired -Memphis, TN)
Collierville, TN

Join with us at:         http://www.iracing.com/

=======================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Wiesen [mailto:jwiesen at appliedpersonnelresearch.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:51 PM
To: Richard Arwood
Cc: IPAC-List at ipacweb.org
Subject: Re: [IPAC-List] Call for new models for fire promotional exams

Yes, Chief, most munis will not spend real money to avoid possible 
liability under Title VII.  But what of those munis that have already 
lost expensive Title VII cases and reasonably can expect more of the 
same?  Wouldn't it make sense for them to think out of the box and spend 
some money to save bigger money?

Joel


- -
Joel P. Wiesen, Ph.D., Director
Applied Personnel Research
62 Candlewood Road
Scarsdale, NY 10583-6040
(617) 244-8859
http://appliedpersonnelresearch.com



Richard Arwood wrote:

> Joel:

> 

> In my experience, the decisions on training and selection approaches

rarely

> get weighed against the possibilities of what the legal costs MAY become.

> Such discussions are very complex and must be accomplished with many

> different people (legal folks, HR, fire department, union), many of whom

do

> not have a real understanding of legal employee selection or any

> understanding of the Uniform Guidelines for Employee Selection.  The group

> members also carry various agendas that do not readily contribute to the

> "best legal" selection design.  What usually results is a compilation of

> decisions (sometimes called "satisficing") by well-meaning but largely

> ignorant (of selection methods) public officials who are likely not going

to

> be around (because they are appointed) when the challenges arise; and even

> if THEY are around at that time, they will likely NOT have an accusatory

> finger pointed at their previous ignorance or their lack of expertise.

The

> legal challenges are usually regarded as just the "cost of doing business"

> in today's very litigious HR environment, and many cases (if not most) are

> settled out of court to minimize further costs.

> 

> ...............RBA

> 

> =======================================

> Richard Arwood, Fire Chief (retired -Memphis, TN)

> Collierville, TN

> 

> Join with us at:         http://www.iracing.com/

> 

> =======================================

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ipac-list-bounces at ipacweb.org [mailto:ipac-list-bounces at ipacweb.org]

> On Behalf Of Joel Wiesen

> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:35 PM

> To: IPAC-List at ipacweb.org

> Subject: Re: [IPAC-List] Call for new models for fire promotional exams

> 

> Concerning Chief Arwood's comment ("no fire department in the United 

> States has the money to do it"), does anyone know how much money the 

> City has spent on the Ricci matter, so far?  Or how much money is 

> typically spent on defending a class action, Title VII challenge in the 

> public sector?  Is reliable cost information available?

> 

> Thanks.

> 

> Joel

> 

> 

> - -

> Joel P. Wiesen, Ph.D., Director

> Applied Personnel Research

> 62 Candlewood Road

> Scarsdale, NY 10583-6040

> (617) 244-8859

> http://appliedpersonnelresearch.com

> 

> 

> 

> Richard Arwood wrote:

>> Joel:

>>

>> You are absolutely, positively correct regarding the amount of time and

>> experience that is normally required for Lieutenants to acquire skills

for

>> initial command and the accurate development of strategy and tactics.

>> Sadly, even the largest, most active fire departments have those same

>> challenges; and the smaller departments have no way to meet them.  

>>

>> The problem was similar with the military, as I understand it, following

> the

>> Vietnam era.  As a result, the military has embarked, largely

> successfully,

>> to develop computer-based simulation training (albeit very expensive)

that

>> places students (officer and officer candidates) in very realistic

>> decision-making exercise through which they develop experience-based

>> abilities within a tense, complex decision environment (called

>> "recognition-primed" decisionmaking).  A leading researcher and his work

> in

>> this area, Gary Klein, can be found here:

>> http://www.stormingmedia.us/78/7886/A788622.html

>>

>> The National Fire Academy (Emmitsburg, MD) has many curriculum areas that

>> are founded upon Klein's research and the approaches currently being used

> by

>> the military to develop field and strategic command officers.  However,

>> getting similar results at the local and state levels is very

problematic.

>>

>> Ideally (and as it happened in the not-to-distant past), a fire

department

>> should place a Lieutenant directly subordinate to an experience mentor (a

>> Captain) where he or she would remain for a period of "mentoring" time.

> The

>> training period would also be supplemented with a required curriculum of

>> realistic simulation in which recognition-primed skills are developed.

> Only

>> after BOTH of these requirements are met, would the Lieutenant be

eligible

>> to supervise independently in emergency situations.  The problem is,

>> however, that no fire department in the United States has the money to do

>> it.  Thus, we get far too many inexperienced officers who are forced into

>> decision-making roles for which they are minimally, if at all, qualified.

>>

>> It has been that way for decades, and it will likely not change soon.

>>

>> ......................RBA

>>

>> =======================================

>> Richard Arwood, Fire Chief (retired -Memphis, TN)

>> Collierville, TN

>>

>> Join with us at:         http://www.iracing.com/

>>

>> =======================================

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: ipac-list-bounces at ipacweb.org

[mailto:ipac-list-bounces at ipacweb.org]

>> On Behalf Of Joel Wiesen

>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:11 AM

>> To: IPAC-List at ipacweb.org

>> Subject: [IPAC-List] Call for new models for fire promotional exams

>>

>> The recent thread on Ricci prompts this email on an idea that has 

>> intrigued me for years.

>>

>> We (and the fire service) might consider reconceptualizing fire 

>> promotional exams.  I see promise for improving 

>> productivity/effectiveness and reducing adverse impact.

>>

>> Consider the job of Fire Lieutenant.  The current promotional exam 

>> process is designed to select people who can do the job of Lieutenant 

>> immediately on appointment.

>>

>> Typically, the only entrance requirement for a promotional exam is 

>> several years experience in the next lower title (e.g., as a Firefighter 

>> for the job of Lieutenant).

>>

>> To the extent that promotional exams test supervisory KSAPs, the current 

>> promotional exam system leaves firefighters largely or completely to 

>> their own devices to learn the job of Lieutenant.  (Yes, often there is 

>> a published reading list, however, the books do not address the 

>> complexities and range of application of strategy and tactics seen in 

>> firefighting, perhaps because real-world fire situations are so varied 

>> and complex.)

>>

>> There might be alternative promotional exam systems that would have less 

>> adverse impact while maintaining or improving overall job performance of 

>> Lieutenants, especially new Lieutenants (say for the first 5 or 10 years 

>> on the job).  For example, the fire department might offer training 

>> classes for promotion to Lieutenant, designed so that successful 

>> completion of the classes could serve as an entrance requirement for the 

>> promotional exam.  It may well be that all students would master the 

>> material, as is typically seen in fire recruit training programs.  The 

>> promotional exam might then focus on past job performance (reliability, 

>> customer service, cautiousness, judgment, etc.)

>>

>> Any thoughts?

>>

>> Joel

>>

>> P.S.  I suggest Fire Lieutenants might take 5-10 years to master 

>> strategy and tactics because there are so few fires in most 

>> municipalities (due to improvements in the building codes over past 

>> generations).  One Fire Chief told me he sends new Lieutenants to a 

>> nearby large city to get experience fighting fires, as there are so few 

>> fires in his community.

>>

>>

>>

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